July 3: Civil Union & Marriage Committee

All times are Eastern

10:14 PM

Overture 13-04 to amend W-4.9001 to change the definition of marriage from a "man and a woman" to "two persons" passed by 28-24.

Shall what we have done answer all business before us? Strong vote yes. Committee closed. 35-13-1.

8:30 PM

New Motion: "Move to approve 13-05 (AI) and make it the answer to all the overtures in the committee."

Discussion for and against:
--"Pastors need to be able to marry in same gender couples in states that offer them marriage. We need to embrace love and justice. It will give us the time for discernment we need."
--"It is the task of both the PJC and the GA to offer authoritative interpretations. This is not a mandate on high, but simply doing our job. This will be vetted by the GA as well."
--"What I read in the Bible is that the practice of homosexuality is a sin. The church has not done a good job of answering with love. It is not gracious to condone a sin."
--"This does not change the definition of marriage. It allows our teaching elders to exercise conscience in their ministry. It frees us to study."

--Amendment:  "Teaching elders and commissioned ruling elders authorized to conduct services of marriage, as agents of the state may, at their sole discression, following the discussion required in W-9.2002a, officiate at a service of civil marriage for two person who meet the legal requirements of the state to whom the elder demonstrates sufficient committment..."
--Speeches for and against the amendment.
--Question called on amendment.
--Amendment fails 16-27-4

--Overture 13-07 proposed as substitute motion. Rejected by moderator.
--Vote to divide the question. Passes. Answering all the overtures in the committee is now a seperate motion.
--Speeches against and in favor of 13-07.
--Question has been called
--This vote will be done with a paper ballot to protect the privacy of the commissioners.
--Motion fails by 24-26-2

7:30 PM

Committee will begin again at 7:30 p.m. None of the overtures submitted by the presbyteries have been considered yet.

Going into quasi committee of the whole. Suspends business for discussion.

--"Wants to bring up confessional Christian marriage again."
--"Approve 13-05 to answer all business items."
--"Suggest 13-04 to amend the Book of Order."
--"Same sex couples are able to be blessed. But we're seeking change."
--"Prevent pastors from signing any marriage licenses."
--"In this two year plan of study that no marriages would be allowed in our church."
--"Whatever the form is that comes from the court may be signed by the pastor. Don't call it a wedding, call it a ceremony."

Completed quasi committee of the whole.

New Motion: The GA will state, "Define Christian marriage as a union of one man and one woman. Any redefinition of Christian Marriage should recognize the confessional nature of the definition and should be preceded by careful and prayerful formal confessional amendment process....change in the definition of the marriage in civil law does not and cannot change the Church's Constitution."

Speeches in support and against the motion.
--Changes of this magnitude "should be a confessional change."
--Commissioner attempts to make 13-05 (the AI) a substitute motion. Moderator will not permit it at this time.
--"What is a prayerful formal confessional amendment process? Nothing in this to create a Task Force to do anything."
--"Our Book of Confessions was created in specific times and specific contexts. Statements on marriage were written at a specific time."
--"This is clarification."
--"This is coming in cold without any study. This assumes a great deal of knowledge that we don't have."
--Move to table the motion. Seconded. Moderator does not recognize motion.
--Move to override the moderator's vote. Motion fails, discussion continues
--"I know this is hard. As counter intuitive as it sounds, this is a good idea for everyone. This brings us back to the historical principles we have sought in our church."
--"It is premature and will negate the study that we have already passed."
--Question called.
--Motion fails 19-30-2

5:00 PM

Both the main motion (4 year plan) to study and the substitute motion (2 year plan) to study has been perfected. Commissioners will vote on if the substitute motion will replace the main motion.

--Financial implications are being discussed
--Speeches on which motion will be accepted
--Vote if substitute motion should become the main motion .
--Substitute motion becomes the main motion by 31-23. The new main motion calls for 2 years of study vs. 4 years of study.

--Discussion of the main motion begins. Commissioners are discussing combining the old main motion and old substitute motion. This would require defeating the new main motion and starting from scratch. Other alernatives are being considered.

--Vote on the main motion. Discussing how to add a comment to the new main motion.
--Main motion passes by 29-23.

Commissioners leave for dinner. The committee reconvenes at 7:30 p.m. to consider the other overtures.

Here is the legislation passed by the committee:

In a desire to promote the peace, unity and purity of the church, I move the whole Presbyterian Church USA enter into a season of serious study and discernment concerning the meaning of Christian Marriage in the two year period between the 220th General Assembly and the 221st General Assembly.  I would further move the Office of Theology and Worship prepare and distribute educational materials to all presbyteries and congregations.

These materials should include the relevant scripture key methods of biblical interpretations current understanding of our constitution and some suggested guidance for prayerful and reconciling ways of listening to one another.

We would ask that all presbyteries report to the Office of General Assembly on how this was conducted in their congregations at least three months prior to the 221st General Assembly.

This motion is offered in the hope and trust that  such discernment will genuinely seek the rule and will of God be done in our Presbyterian Church as it is in heaven under the guidance of the triune God.

3:34 PM

--The substitute motion will be perfected first. Then the main motion. Both relate to study.
--The substitute motion: "I move the whole PCUSA enter into a season of serious study and discernment concerning the meaning of Christian Marriage in the two year period between the 220th and 221st General Assembly..."
--Amendment to substitute motion: "During this season of discernment pastors would be allowed to follow their conscience in officiating same gender marriages as permitted by law recognizing this would not bind the PJC. We would offer the directive of the GA as defense of such action."

Discussing amendment:
--"Amendment would cause confusion in the church."
--"This would be without full legal effect but at least indicate a willingness to provide some flexibility to responding to pastors in situations of pastoral need."
--Amendment to this amendment: "Sessions can allow the use of church property." Motion carries.
 --Updated amendment: "During this season of discernment pastors would be allowed to follow their conscience in officiating same gender marriages as permitted by applicable state law and that sessions can allow the use of church property. Recognizing this would not bind the PJC we would offer this directive of the GA as defense of such actions."
 --Speeches in favor and against the amendment.
--ACC: This amendment is a resolution, a statement of the General Assembly.
--Amendment fails, 23-17-7

Discussing the substitute motion. Substitute motion is perfected.

Returning to the main motion to perfect it (see 1:30 PM for more details)

--"The previous call to study did not include any recommendations to the General Assembly."
--Amendment to strike paragraph: "Direct the Presbyterian World Mission Office to receive feedback from our worldwide mission partners about their understanding of the meaning of marriage and the their suggestions about how to move forward missiologically as a denomination, and to forward this feedback to the Task Force."
--Speeches in favor and against amendment.
--Amendment fails 17-26

--Amendment to accelerate study process into 2 year process, not 4 year process.
--Speeches in favor and against amendment.
--Motion fails 21-26-6

--Main motion is perfected. On break.

2:55 PM

--The main motion and substitute motion both call for study. We've not seen the substitute motion on the screen yet. There is an amendment to the substitute motion that will allow for pastoral conscience in states allowing same gender marriage.
--There is a return to perfecting the main motion before considering the substitute motion.
--Lots of confusion about if a substitute motion needs to be germain to the main motion. People consulting the ACC.

--Committee in quasi committee of the whole. Discussion mode about what is happening and how we can move forward.
--"Lets move forward, not backward. Propose it again."
--Discussing three categories before the committee.
--"It is important that we follow parliamentary procedure at this assembly. Parliamentary procedure is designed to protect the rights of the majority and the minority. It is vital that Roberts Rules are followed."

--Temperature check on three categories:
1) Amend/AI type options 13-04, 13-05, strong interest
2) Study options, strong interest
3) Statement of traditional marriage and confessions, moderate interest

--Parliamentarian speaking to the commissioners. "Your process is proceeding OK. Continue to perfect the motions. Substitute motions do need to be germain but that is ambiguous. The committee decided that it was not germain by overrulling the moderator."



2:16 PM

Returning to discussing the main motion to study.


--Substitute motion being proposed: GA acknowledge, "Our confession, based on their understanding of Scripture, define Christian Marriage as a union of one man and one women. Any redefinition of Christian marriage should recognize the confessional nature of the definition and should be preceded by a careful and prayerful formal confessional amendment process."
--Moderator: This substitute motion is within the bounds of the discussion.
--Moderator decision is appealed. Seconded. Vote 24-17-7. Substitute motion out of order.

Back to main motion.

--Substitute motion. Seconded. "Move that the whole PCUSA enter into season of serious study between 220th and 221st General Assembly. All presbyteries report to the Office of the GA three months prior to the 221st General Assembly."

Discussion:

--Amendment: "During this season of discernment, pastors would be allowed to follow their consciences during this period of study. Would not bind PJC." Seconded.
--"I've heard so many people talking about pain on this issue. Congregations also feel the pain and anguish of same gender couples. This provides protections to pastors seeking to meet the need of their congregations without threat of losing their ordination. Provide a season of true discernment."
--Point of order. This amendment is effectively an authoritative interpretation. This is not germain to the main motion and would invalidate the substitute motion.
--Point of order: Need to perfect the original main motion, then we will return to the substitute motion.
--The 219th General Assembly just offered a study. The options we are talking about now are much more intentional.
--Commissioner asks for clarification from the constitutional committee (ACC) on if a substitute motion needs to be germain to the main motion to be considered.

Break for 10 minutes.

1:30 PM

--Motion (carried forward from 11:30 AM below): Because of deep divisions and pain, 1) A call for conversation, 2) Mandate that each presbytery engage in a conversation on the meaning of marriage and how to be unified as a denomination, 3) Conversations and reports completed by 222th General Assembly, 4) Receive feedback from global partners, 5) GA send letter to congregations about study.

--Amendments:

• "Charge the Office of Theology and Worship to design and implement the discussion in presbyteries and sessions." 
• "Each presbytery is encourage to implement this conversation in each of its sessions around the same three question."
• "Presbyteries shall report on these conversations to the Stated Clerk and the Office of Theology and Worship by August 2014."
• "Moderators of the 220th and 221st General Assemblies appoint a Task Force of nine persons representing the diversity of the denomination to receive these reports and proposals and make a recommendation to the 222nd General Assembly."

Sorry folks but the whole motion is not available on PC-Biz.

--Discussion:

"We are called here and now to embrace a change. Waiting four to six years does not see acceptable to me."

--Amendments pass.

--Quasi Committee of the whole explained. Go into conversation for the opportunity to hear the other items coming forward. No action in this quasi committee. Commissioners want to hear other motions out there before moving forward with the current motion. This would go for about 15 minutes.

--Motion passes. Committee in quasi committee of the whole to hear other motions out there.

Motions out there:

--"Similar to the one we are considering. Move the PCUSA move into a season of serious study on Christian marriage between this assembly and the next. Intent is to do this in two year and more open ended."
--"Move to approve 13-05. This would relieve the difficult pastoral crisis in states where there is same gender marriage."
--"Our confessions based on scripture. Any redefinition of Christian marriage should be rooted in confessions. Changes in the confessions should precede changing the Book of Order."

Comments:

--"What is realistic in terms of a time frame for a study?"
--"The language that was inserted in the first motion dealt with mutual forbearance. During the season of mutual forbearance pastors can follow their conscience to marry couples in states that offer same sex marriage. Statement by General Assembly."
--"Speak to Authoritative Interpretation. Yes I would like this passed. We need take some action in states where same gender marriage is legal."
--"The amendment before us is what we did at the last General Assembly. It seems to delay things. I'm for 13-05. We need a clear sense of mutual forbearance for our pastors in states that allow same gender marriage."
--"Lots of presbyteries have not been given a change to discuss marriage. The discussion did not happen because of denomination shaking events last year."
--"We have a dilemma in Iowa where same gender marriage is legal. Things are changing and we have to address it."
--"Yes worlds are shaking. An AI that recognizes same gender marriage will be like a bomb in the church. Allowing same-sex marriage. It will cause a schism in the church. I understand the difficulties of pastoral care. We need to think about being patient."
--"Referring to state laws on marriage, the state law does not supercede God's law."
--"In regards to 13-05 and the issue of the wholeness of the church. We have given an awful lot of leeway to pastors to give blessings. We need to let people to work this through before movement."
--"Do pastors have their hands tied in ministering to their congregations. The current standards do not tie ministers hands to give pastoral care. We're talking about what happens in a worship service."
--"I appreciate the concern about the AI consequences. I take exception of the nuclear option language. We are here to discern what God's will is right now. What is best for the health of our church. We need to prevent these prosecutions in our church while we discuss things."

Moving out of quasi committee of the whole. Back to business!

12:00 PM

Lunch break. Reconvene at 1:30 pm.

11:30 AM

The chair will entertain motions. There are 10 motions.

--Motion: Because of deep divisions and pain, 1) A call for conversation, 2) Mandate that each presbytery engage in a conversation on the meaning of marriage and how to be unified as a denomination, 3) Conversations and reports completed by 222th General Assembly, 4) Receive feedback from global partners, 5) GA send letter to congregations about study.
--Seconded
--"We need space for this conversation in the PCUSA."

Discussion:
--Amend motion to add Puerto Rico. Motion carries.
--Amend motion to charge the "Office of Theology and Worship to organize the discussion in presbyteries and sessions." Amendment to amendment. Instead of "organize," use "design and implement." Amendment to the amendment passes. Amendment to the amendment "in each presbytery and session."
--Now looking at this version, "Charge the office of Theology and Worship to design and implement discussions in each presbytery and its sessions."
--Office of Theology and Worship being asked about helpful language.
--Amendment to add "in each presbytery and their sessions" fails.

11:12 AM

Committee reconvenes. Overview of parliamentary procedure. Also information about how to submit a study to the General Assembly.



11:00 AM

Committee on break. Voted to start business after the break.


10:20 AM

Sharing words from tables. "No AI", "For AI", "Concerns", "Middle ground"

Going into a time to hear from each other. Where are you hearing sparks of possibility?

--"We heard pain and harm from both sides. It is not from fear from what will happen. People are voting to leave the PCUSA. Last night that we heard about churches leaving. We heard about the impact on mission partners including relocating missionaries. Reformed theology changes but many of the changes come from many deliberations after years."
--"Student at Princeton Theological Seminary. We have talked about what a difficult decision this is. We realize the weight that our decisions carry. This is such a big issue it is important to take this to the congregations."
--"I have some ideas. I can fully appreciate both sides of the battle. What if we let 'marriage' remain the same, but in states where gay marriage licenses are permitted, have a church service that is not specifically a marriage, but can have all of the celebration, all of the affirmation that the couple wants to do...Can we find away to affirm this other kind of ministry unit and support and encourage and care for and not have to get tied up with how in the world did they consummate their marriage. It is an idea, but I don't know how to put it together. Keep marriage as marriage, but there is this other ministry unit that needs our support."
--"I feel troubled. I'm troubled about conversations about saving the church when people are hurting. As children of God, our first concern should be for people, not for the institution. In states where same-sex marriage has been moved to be legal, pastors in those states should be able to marry a gay couple. You should be able to sign a license. To do less than that is disingenuous. No one wants to be treated differently. A bigger issue is to change the wording in the Book of Order. I'm willing to compromise on that. People in a state with same sex marriage, you should be able to sign the marriage license."
--"I endorse the calls for further discussion. The church really needs to get the issue into the church. Then there is MLK, justice can't wait. But how long?"
--"Hearing from both sides of this debate, there are lots of words of love. On the left there are words of love for everyone and words of condemnation for those who disagree. People on both sides of this argument are seeking what God's call is. We're discerning. Our decisions here cannot be taken lightly. We need to put into practice the words we speak and listen to each other and really respect that we are brothers and sister in Christ."
--"We all think we need to have a good discussion and study of this issue. I don't think we will study this issue if there is not a vote at stake. We need a way to challenge presbyteries to study the issue. We've had two years of study but we have not done it. I encourage us to find a middle group that continues to affirm the definition of marriage but finds a middle way. Find wording on how to promote study."
--"I'm a campus minister. We gather around the table with different issue. We listen and hear. We need to get some help to bring us a full picture."
--"I'm so moved by what we have heard this morning. What ever we do we must honor the courage and pain we heard yesterday. As Christians we are people of faith and faith must have actions. We are God's hands and feet."
--"We need to create a balance. I want all of us to think about our brothers and sisters and let the Holy Spirit talk."
--"There is a necessity for pastoral exception. Pastors can make decisions based on cases. How many pastors have baptized children even when parents don't attend church? Is there a way we can simply recognize that sessions and presbyteries need to make individual decisions. We need to give pastoral exceptions in states where it is legal. There is a bigger question about marriage in general as well. If we call for a study, maybe we need to include marriage issues in general."
--"I'm dedicated to unity in the Christian church. What scares me today is the polarization we're experiencing that we see in our culture generally. If we seek a third way of study for a limited period of time in the effort to keep our church united and fulfilled in some way that would be good. Christ's prayer for the unity of the church. We need to give ourselves time to reduce some of that polarization. People are divided and we need a 3rd way."
--"The church has been described in terms of a body. All of the parts are indispensable. Our digits are stretched as far as we can go. This issue has us stretched. My spark of hope is that this body will keep things together even while we are stretched. We need a way to allow that to happen in our denomination. As a committee we are called to talk about a social issue. As a church we have not learned to talk together about diverse ways. We need to act like a diverse body that values its parts."
--"Make a motion that we move on to business items."
--Motion passes 23-18-4. Business starts after the break.

9:45 AM

Tables going into discernment. Where are you this morning? Has anything changed since last night. Some people have brought motions. "Please share those motions with people at your tables and get a temperature check."

9:39 AM

Commissioners are asking for more time to process things before entering into business.
9:15 AM

Commissioners are gathering for business.