July 2: Civil Union & Marriage Committee

All times are Eastern

9:05 PM

Some words from Scripture and then the committee closes until tomorrow morning at 9:30 AM. 

8:39 PM

What are the impressions I am left with from today? Reports back from the table discussions.

Spokespersons:
 --"Our conversation we tried to recognize the difference of Biblical interpretation, the pain on both sides and tremendous pain across the whole church. If we change the definition of marriage in the same year as 10-A, we will have more difficulty in our church and in our ecumenical relationships. Is there a third way that would require the whole church to be involved in a serious study on this issue. Sometimes it takes a while for people to seriously study the issue. Trying to make a decision for the whole church in the next couple of days is too soon. Can we give the church some space to have an experience like we're having here."
--"This is a very emotional issue and we're being asked for a reasoned response. We are not sure that the church is ready. We still need conversations."
--"If you don't change LGBT people are hurt. If you do change, churches will leave. We're facing down dire consequences. The second is how the Bible interprets marriage. It is hard to take a 1,000 year old document and try to discern what was meant in that document. How do you make a decision with so little information. How do you create a balance between hard emotions and feelings. People on either side will be offended by the results of what is decided here. There is lots of emotion involved on both sides. It is hard to look at the facts and make a clear decision without emotion."
--"This is a huge weight on each of us. We want to thank our leadership for helping us be prayerful. I wish that both sides (tears) would be open and be willing to pray and talk to each other. Perhaps we could stay together. I don't think any of us have heard anything that is new. We are far from a consensus but we all love Jesus Christ."
--"There was a lot of scripture they were throwing out to us out of context. We were concerned about the predictions about who stays and who leaves. We do this for the will of God, not for the preservation of the denomination. Some of us felt hurt with what we have gone through."
--"We were struck by how two groups could take the same scripture and read entirely different things and then also talking totally past each other. They were not speaking the same language. Some were strong in scripture and some were strong in personal stories. There was a sense that we should not be making decisions on the basis of emotional crisis or fear of breaking up. We need to listen to our mission partners...we should not make that irrelevant. We are trying to discern the truth and people have things to say to us. We thought that this is a very, very big decision. Our entire table was convinced that an AI would be very damaging to the church. It is 300 voices making a decision for the entire denomination. We need more discussion, more intentional gatherings where people of different sides can actually have conversation. We feel that we are rushing that that we need to take some time with this. There needs to be consensus and this is tied to the confessions. To make a confessional change should have consensus."
--"We heard a lot of people who were trying to be faithful. We heard a lot of fear on all sides. We heard a lot of pain in many voices who spoke to us today. We talked about Jesus and what he had to say in different ways. Some people think about Jesus' words about marriage and some more broadly including Jesus' statements about inclusivity. Everyone is a child of God and we hope everyone would be part of our church."
--"After listening to what everyone has said, we've come to consensus to what the problems are. The two sides are so far apart. We have covenant agreements here but people on the outside don't have them. We're the disciples in the Upper Room waiting for answers. We're in a waiting period. We're waiting for God to speak to us. We also heard the pain. The pain of the LGBT people. When we interpret Scripture from different ways, how can we handle this issue. We need to do it in a way that is pleasing to God."
--"We need to remember that if we pass an Amend or AI, no one will be forced to do something against their own personal conviction."
--"Remember that God is God and God is in control. They are made through the power of the Holy Spirit. We've heard a lot of rhetoric tonight. There are a lot of churches waiting for a decision. Revelation says that if we add anything to the word of God, we will be condemned."
--"It is ok for us as Presbyterians to be in conflict with this. It is really difficult for all of us. None of us asked to be on this committee. Conflict is not a bad thing at all."
--"We need to pray (tears)."


7:48 PM

Commissioners are going to be talking at their tables for 30 minutes and then sharing their insights with the whole group. What are the impressions I am left with from today? Each table will share three impressions with the group.

7:40 PM

There is an additional Overture Advocate presentation supporting oppositional overtures to "balance out the presentations." Marriage is between "one man and one woman."

7:26 PM


Commissioners are gathering for the evening session.

5:10 PM

ACC answers constitutional questions for commissioners. Live blogging will resume at 7:30 p.m.

5:00 PM

The impact of overtures on mission partners discussed. If the PCUSA embraces same gender marriage, it will further strain relationships with mission partners.

Grady Parsons discussing how many churches would leave if the definition of marriage is changed. "No objective data. Some people say none. Some say significant impact in certain Presbyteries."

Commissioner asks how much data do we have about how many people who don't come to church because of homophobia. Grady Parsons said that there is no internal data but there are some external studies.

4:13 PM

GAMC/ACSWP/ACWC resources are being presented to commissioners. These agencies have no advocacy positions. Commissioners will have an opportunity to ask their own questions.

The Advocacy Committee for Woman's Concerns advocated for the passage of pro-LGBT overtures. A commissioner wants someone to speak to an alternative view. Leadership is considering how to do that.

3:15 PM
Overture Advocates
Speaking on the Amend and AI Overtures

--Scott Clark, Redwoods "Pass both the AI and Amendment. The amendment is needed to fully recognize all people. I am here to recognize the harm that the current policy does to LGBT couples. As marriage became legal in a number of states, a number of pastors have to turn away couples and their families from the church. This is cruel and contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In recent court decisions, judicial council members have spoken out against how LGBT persons are treated. Take time to read the dissents in recent marriage cases. Please stop this cycle of harm. I urge you to pass an amend overture."
--David Kingsley, Hudson River, "Family is not about sex. It is about relationship. It is about having a companion or spouse. Gay people are told that committed relationships are sinful. They are told that they will never have a romantic bond with someone. Within the traditional interpretation of scripture, gay people are told that they cannot have a committed relationship. Good teachings are not destructive to human creation. These policies have caused much pain and suffering. It is not good for anyone to be alone."
--Myra Kazanjian, Utica. "Today in our society we recognize the civil unions of same gender couples. Some faithful Christians are uncomfortable calling these relationships marriage. They are like marriage in every sense of the word except they involve same gender couples. These couples provide the same benefits. They provide for the birth and nurture of children. Marriage provides economic security for the couples. Why can't we call these relationships marriage? We believe in the Holy Spirit...that the Holy Spirit is constantly moving us to new understandings. Is the problem the judgement of others? Is it that some of us have no personal experience with loving same gender couples? Yes this will upset some of us. But real people are being hurt now, particularly LGBT youth. What is the message we are sending to the children of these same-gender couples? These kids are growing up and it would make a difference to them to know the church supported them. To do anything else denies one group the opportunity of fully worshiping with us."
--Andrew Stehlik, New York City, Reformed theology about marriage.
--Lara Marsh, East Iowa, "What defines Christianity for you? Generous, loving. Barna Research shows that Christianity is defined as anti-homosexual. Many young adults have left the church because of the way the church treats LGBT persons. This is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. There are many Republicans that support marriage equality. These overtures allow all of us to exercise freedom. These overtures emphasize trust for local elders and sessions. They do not force anyone to do anything. We are tired of fighting and being known of what we are against. Stop waging war, start washing feet."
--Ray Bagnuolo, New York City. "Please send forward our recommendations for a passage of an AI and Amend. So all marriages can be considered equal. This is about knowing who we are, sisters and brothers in the body of Christ. We know about justice and courage. We know how to move beyond the fear that traps others. Do this again with these overtures."
--Tony Beyer, Heartland. "Our God is complex. It is in the conflict that our church remains relevant. Many of the contemporary concepts that we deal with do not exist in the Bible. Same gender loving couples do not really exist in the Bible. Our most important values come from the values of Christ. He teaches us radical inclusivity. Love your neighbor as yourself. Emotion is good. It means that the church is doing its job. Send both the Amend and AI to the floor. Our church needs this conflict. Fear of loosing members is no reason to hold back on this. When torn between judgement and grace, let us side on the side of grace. Let's err on the side of love."

2:30 PM

Overture Advocates
Speaking to the AI Overtures

--Blue screen of death here. Sorry for the technical difficulties
--Judy Whitford, East Iowa. "Our constitution gives us the power to issue AI. Things are different now. A number of states have extended marriage to same gender couples. If trends continue civil marriage available for 40% of Americans. We need to change to meet pastoral concerns. The AI does not seek to redefine marriage but provide pastoral care to couples. The PJC has changed significantly on the issue of marriage. Even opposing overtures recognize the ambiguity we have with the Book of Worship. An authoritative interpretation is needed to clarify. Discerning the will of God is important. Law suites drain resources."
--Earl Arnold, Cayuga-Syracuse "Story about the harm of not having an authoritative interpretation. Couple approaching the pastor was denied marriage. It was an agonizing decision for the pastor. The Presbyteries that we represent that prior AI's do not reflect the hour. The proposed AI's will address the times. Pastors will need not bar congregants. No one will be forced to do anything. It will prevent court cases.
-Betty Iwan, Genesee Valley: "Pastoral care for Ralph and Van. Our congregation has tried to love Ralph and Van the same as anyone. Ralph and Van would like to be wed now that New York State has same gender marriage. We're sad that our church and pastors are unable to marry Ralph and Van. The Directory of Worship, "The worship of God in the Christian community is the foundation and context for pastoral care." Out of sheer joy and love for Ralph and Van...we'd like to have a service of Christian marriage."
--John Harris, New York Presbytery. "It impacts the use of Church property. How will sessions allow others to use their property? Historic partners want to lease, rent sanctuaries for same gender marriages. Many churches need this kind of funding. We need an AI that makes it explicit that a church may use church property."
--Sharon Wright, Boston: "Historical and Biblical interpretations. Our fore-bearers reinterpreted marriage. Scripture reveals no standard definition of marriage. Many ancient practices that assured survival are no longer used. The Bible is silent about same gender marriage. People have changed as they discern God's voice over time. God refuses to live in a box."
--Jeananne Stine, Baltimore. "Jesus challenged overly strict interpretation of scripture. Presbyterian same gender couples seek to include marriages as their shared life together. We do not see these couples as the other. Some in the church continue to see these couples as the other. Paul addressed a similar situation in Galatians.God sits in the mercy seat. Reinterpreting marriage has been at the heart of protestantism from the beginning. Luther allowed clergy to marry. We must allow pastors freedom of conscience. We must not bind the conscience of pastors. We must not bind conscience of pastors that interpret scripture differently. We humbly ask for an AI."
--Author Fullerton, Albany Presbytery. "Marriage is different from 100 years ago. The institution has changed while the name as remained the same. As good faith belief leads us to new understandings, the AI will allow pastoral freedom. For some of us the gender of the couple is not the main point. The AI allows pastoral discretion even if you disagree. We want an AI that blesses pastoral discretion. We are called as Christians to act out of faith, not out of fear. The only question is can we trust enough to allow pastors to exercise that discretion. We are called to be with those on the martians. See, celebrate love and commitment."

2:00 PM

Overture Advocates 
Speaking to Overtures 7, 12, and 13 

--John Tony, Mississippi Presbytery. "The confessions are the strings that ground us in Scripture. Marriage is between a man and a women. The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. From the beginning of creation God made them a man and a woman. Marriage comes from God. Marriage is not a social construct. Jesus says that God is the author of marriage. God made the male and female, not two persons. God's design also established the right number for marriage, two. Our consciences are bound to the Word of God as interpreted to us in the confessions. The Westminster Confession says that marriage is between a man and a woman. As a pastor I find myself under the authority of the great Shepard. As a chuch we need to help all people to remember that our call is to follow God with all of our lives. Changing the confessions would mean that we cut the strings to our tradition.
--Ben Laughlon, Cherokee Presbytery. "Our confessions claim the truth of the Gospels. The Bible and our Confessions are clear about what marriage is all about. Our faith and our practice needs to be aligned. There is an inseparable connection between faith and practice. The Directory of Worship naturally flows out of our confessions. This language is rooted in our confessions and anchored in Scripture. Unless the church decides to change its confessions, these changes should not be made. I urge the committee not to pass an AI or an Amend overture changing the definition of marriage. It will cut the string to our faith anchored in Scripture and the confessions. Does God require the church to disregard the commandments that God has made? Some argue that this is about equal rights. Our denomination lost 80,000 members last year after 10-A. In my own congregation there are people looking at this GA. Changing our definition of marriage does not show love, but helps people to continue in sin. Jesus has issued the authoritative interpretation of marriage."
--Marc Mason, Foothills Presbytery: "The church defines what the church believes. Overture 13-13 speaks with a simple voice: we cling to Scripture and the confessions. In our Presbytery we have studied the majority and minority report on marriage from the 219th GA. We have voted as a Presbytery to support 13-13. It will strengthen our relationship with international relations."
--Cody Watson, New Harmony Presbytery: "A large number of international partners are breaking off relationships with the American church because of our work changing marriage."
--Kate Keep, Charlston-Atlantic Presbytery: "We used four major translations in the Bible. Do not be deceived. Fornicators, homosexuals, extortioners will not inherit the Kingdom of God. We are all inclined to sin. We need to help each other overcome our weaknesses. Many churches will leave if this passes. Many churches will be forced to recognize that the PCUSA has turned its back on the written Word of God."

1:45 PM

The committee is reviewing the agenda and getting ready for Overture Advocates. Commissioners are walking through legal decisions made by the PCUSA on same-sex marriage.

11:00 AM

Live blogging will resume at 2:00 PM for the Overture Advocate speeches.


10:50 AM

Open hearings continue

--"I'm a gay man. Son of Presbyterian minister. When I became an adult, I could not reconcile my sense of social justice with what you taught me about homosexuality. I was forced to second class status. I am bitter. You gave me so much, but you've treated me badly."
--"I've been a pastor to many gay people. When Jesus quotes Genesis 2 in Mark, he does not give an option for two persons in marriage. Help me resolve this."
--"When we speak of Biblical marriage, the Bible has multiple witnesses for multiple kinds of marriage. Jacob and Rachel and Leah. There were many Biblical forms of marriage that were relevant throughout biblical history. We are called into a new understanding. Let us not pretend that the Bible has only one view of marriage."
--"Such were some of you...it includes a list of idolatry and sexual sins including homosexual behaviors. If I had an urge to lie, you would call me to repent. The same for our sexual behaviors. May we say no to so called same gender marriage."
--"I"m a sinner saved by God's grace. Please reaffirm Christianity's long history of marriage. Call on all of us to repent on the sorry state of marriage in our times."

10:47 AM

Commissioners are deciding if they want to hear more testimony.

10:00 AM

Open Hearings

--"Homosexuality spoken of as the most 'grievous sin.'"
--Speaker from One by One ministry. Ex-gay speaking. "I've been celebrate for my whole life. Homosexuals will not see the kingdom of God. Uphold traditional marriage."
--"Teaching elders need do their job in Vermont where same-sex marriage is legal. I want to be celebrate unions among same sex couples in my congregation."
--"God gave us marriage. It is gift to be received, it is not for us to be tinkered with. God created the male and female and be joined to his wife."
--"Please make pastoral care equal for all members."
--"Justice in human relationships are complex. Is it just to open another deep wound in the PCUSA body. Is it just to drive a wedge between ecumenical partners. Is it just to endanger people around the world. Is it just for a small group to redefine marriage."
--"God intended to have a family with a man and a woman. Social statistics show that when a man and a woman raise a child, it has the best chance of success."
--"I was baptized and confirmed, taught was child of God. Recipent of God's grace. Speak in favor of 13-01, 13-02. Gender does not define marriage. Loving vs. Virginia...persons of different races could not marriage. My generation bitterly divided something clear and right. Everyone has the right to love someone."
--"Genesis is clear about God's design for marriage. There are churches in conflict right now. If you send this to the floor, you send a message to churches...is it going to stop with 10A. More churches are going to leave. As the moderator has said, do not send this to the floor."
--"Important that our church recognizes marriage. Official recognition has benefits on same sex couples. Church recognition leads to stress reduction and stronger relationship. Important for children that marriage equality becomes a reality."
--"I'm against affirmation of same-sex marriage. It is a sin. I can say this because I was once a lesbian. I was wrong. Are we going to affirm sin in the whole denomination. Love your God with all your mind and your heart. I was sexually confused. I am now pursuing sexual wholeness in Jesus Christ."
--"My friends Cliff and Dave have been together 37 years. The recently got married and the Holy Spirit filled the sanctuary. We are all one in Christ. There is neither male nor female. I hope PCUSA respect Christians who love and respect Cliff and Dave. The Holy Spirit was present at the marriage. Who are we to reject that."
--"Sara and Jen were faithful members of our church. When they fell in love, I did the marriage. I could not tell them they were not holy enough to get marriage. I was put on trial and eventually was acquitted. The trial cost 100,000 dollars. How many people could we feed for that money?"
--"If God put two men or two women in the garden, the human race would not exist. A man and a woman are needed to create children."
--"Good news, the Holy Spirit is alive and well. Our church is 1/3 gay and lesbian and they are coming in droves to serve the Lord. I cry and grieve and hurt when two women who have been together for 25 years come to me and I can't marry them. New York has same sex marriage. I am asking you to free my hand so I can be the pastor that I can be."
--"Civil authorities in my state allow marriage. My hands are tied. I'm tired of sending people to the UCC or UU church to get married."
--"Please affirm marriage between and man and a woman. Please read our report about the biblical nature of marriage."
--"We worked hard to oppose Amendment One in North Carolina. This church needs affirm LGBT people and their wholeness. This will be good for our church."
--"My uncle and his partner Andrew have been together for 16 years. My uncle Alan was in accident. Andrew had limited access to Alan's medical records. My uncles live out marriage vows everyday, but they can't get married."
--"Hear in favor of the AI. Micah 6:8. Do justly, love mercy...What does it mean to do justly? Equality is about justice. All beloved children of God should have equality. Two people of the same sex have just as much opportunity to be married as others."
--"For most people under 30 sexual orientation is a non issue. I am the pastor of 6,000 Presbyterians and they can't get this head around this issue. I have churches that have left this denomination that I love. What is going to happen to our churches. This will be the final straw for many congregations."
--"Speaking in favor of the AI. It is the only compromise. People have opposing beliefs about same-sex marriage. We are supposed to love God and our neighbors as ourselves. People may be anxious, but this overture allows teaching elders and sessions to decide what they want to do. We can trust those we have ordained."
--"It should be how God defines marriage. The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. The church should hold to God's definition. God has told us in his world that he does not approve of sexual relations between a homosexuals. Ministers should not perform marriages for homosexuals."

9:50 AM

Open hearings begin at 10:00

9:40 AM

ACC advising commissioners on constitutional issues. An overture that changes marriage from "a man and a woman" to "two person" would require ratification from the Presbyteries.

9:35 AM

Opening prayer. Then commissioners will introduce themselves to one another.

8:51 AM

The Civil Union & Marriage Committee is in a fairly large ballroom with observer seating for close to 200 people. I'm hoping they turn on the air conditioning soon.

8:30 AM

The first commissioner has arrived in the committee room.